Gaza is an issue that, you know, we're
obsessed with in the United Kingdom and
rightly so, less so here in the US
because they've got so much so much
stuff going on domestically that they
haven't got enough time to talk about
Gaza. But Gaza is still crucial and it
is something that, you know, that people
who care about hold against the
administration, that it's not putting
enough pressure on Prime Minister
Netanyahu to stop the war, that it is
not talking about uh famine or or the
threat of famine in the Gaza Strip
itself, etc., etc. But now they've
decided to go to the next level or this
administration has by cancelling the
visa for Mahmud Abbas, the Palestinian
Authority president who is coming to the
UN General Assembly where he hopes and
many people hope Britain, France, Canada
and Australia will finally do what many
would argue should have been done some
time ago which is to recognize the
Palestinian state as an independent
sovereign nation state sitting as a full
member of the United Nations. Um, after
all, these are countries that have all
talked about a two-state solution in
order to deal with that conflict for
years. And in order to have a two-state
solution, you need two states, and one
of them, Palestine, has not yet been
recognized. The fact that that may well
take place uh in the UN General Assembly
is probably the reason why the United
States has decided to cancel Mahmud
Abbas's visa. um which is an
extraordinary thing and I'm sure will
just make the the already flagrant
divisions between you know the Brit the
British public but also parts of the
British government and the
administration here even more so. Let's
speak to um Mustafa Baguti is the
general secretary of the Palestinian
National Initiative from Ramala in the
West Bank. Good morning Mustafa.
>> Good morning to you.
>> It's good to have you on the program
again. Tell us first of all about your
initial reaction to the visa for Mahmud
Abbas being cancelled.
>> Well, it's not just Mahmud Abbat. It's
visas for 80 people, 80 Palestinians who
were supposed to come
>> entire delegation. Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> And the United States administration,
Mr. Trump's administration is adding one
more violation of international law to
its record. It is in by this act they
have violated the USA obligation as a
host country to the United Nations. They
have Mr. Abbas and the delegation were
not going to visit different parts of
the United States. They were coming just
specifically to the general assembly of
the United Nations and they have been
denied. Uh and that is unacceptable.
It's a violation. The United States has
no right to do so. Uh but that shows you
how biased this American administration
is to Netanyahu and his aggressive
behavior and their act today is another
aggressive act against Palestinians.
Especially that they're saying that
they're doing so because Palestinians
are blocking peace. Such a statement by
Maio is really can be called the mother
of all hypocrisies. Instead of saying
that Netanyahu is destroying peace,
destroying the possibility of two-state
solution, committing genocide,
collective punishment, starvation of
people and ethnic losing
>> just correct, you know, forgive my
ignorance. Um, but has this happened
before that an entire Palestinian
delegation has been denied visas to come
to the UN General Assembly specifically?
Yes, it happened before uh when
President Arafat at the time in I think
in 1988 was also denied access to the
general assembly and then the United
Nations moved the meeting to Geneva and
that's exactly what Zavier Betel
suggested today the foreign minister of
Luxembourg that nobody nobody would
listen to the American instructions and
the meeting could be moved to Geneva and
Palestinians would come there and and
speak to the general assembly and speak
to the international community by and
and the United States and Israel will be
the isolated part in this case.
And do you fear that this move by the
administration to cancel the visas will
endanger what now seems to be almost
inevitable and that is the recognition
of a Palestinian state by France,
Britain, Australia and Canada.
On the contrary, it should encourage
such such a recognition because it
should. But has it you think it it will
endanger it? It should encourage, but
might it might it have the opposite
effect? After all, Donald Trump is very
effective at twisting arms.
>> I don't I have no doubt that France will
recognize Palestinian stage. I am not
sure about Mr. Starmouth. We'll see what
he does. But I think now the British
government is under tremendous pressure
from the British public who believe in
Palestinian rights, who demonstrate for
Palestinian rights, who is utterly
against the genocide that is happening
in Gaza. And that applies to so many
other countries like Luxmbourg, Belgium
and and many other European countries.
>> You know, the recognition is not a big
deal, but it affirms the right of
self-determination of the Palestinian
people. Actually, it's it's late coming
late, but most will come and but it's
not enough. What we need now from the
international community, especially the
European Union, which continues to be
hesitant, is to impose sanctions on
Israel to stop this terrible genocide,
to stop this terrible war, to stop this
destruction of the very last opportunity
of peace based on compromise or as they
call it, two-state solution.
So there I think there was an Israeli
delegation that was supposed to turn up
at an a big arms fair in the United
Kingdom and that's now been cancelled.
They they've been disinvited. I mean
there are things happening but I guess
you would say it's just not enough.
>> Absolutely.
Britain has not yet imposed military
embargo on Israel. Uh, I'm not sure, but
I think British planes still fly over
Gaza to provide intelligence information
to the Israeli army, which is killing
us. Uh, I think Britain has to impose
immediate military embargo and then
engage in sanctions. That's what the
British public wants. By the way, that's
what the American public wants. most
recent poll in the United States of
America has shown that uh 75% of
Democrats and no less than 37% of
Republicans
uh call for halting supplies of arms to
Israel while it is conducting this
terrible genocide in Gaza.
Just on the recognition of the
Palestinian state, if for some reason,
maybe because of a of pressure applied
by Donald Trump, the British government
does not do as it has indicated it will,
which is to recognize your state. What
will your reaction be to that?
>> We'll criticize them. We'll ask the
British public to demonstrate against
them and uh we'll demand apology for
such behavior and recognition. uh we
will not stop struggling for our rights.
What we what we struggle for is nothing
different from the any the right of any
other people to have self-determination
to have independence to have freedom to
get rid of terrible occupation. If the
British government does not do the
recognition, it will uh it will lose
much more of its popularity in the
United Kingdom and I assure you they
will definitely lose next elections.
You think so?
>> Yes, absolutely. I think the Palestinian
issue, the issue of the genocide in Gaza
is becoming an internal political matter
everywhere. Look at what happened uh uh
look at what happened to some
governments like the Dutch government uh
and and and other governments. They're
the they're losing the the possibility.
I mean nine ministers in Holland
resigned and the government lost lost
its majority in the parliament. So that
will repeat in many other places. This
is this has never happened before since
maybe Vietnam war or maybe since the
anti-aparid movement against the
apartheid in South Africa. The
Palestinian issue has become already the
main the most important global issue of
our time and the prophecy of the of of
Mandela is happening that Palestine has
become the most important moral issue in
modern times.
>> But what about elections where you are
in the West Bank uh in the fledgling
state of Palestine? And Mahmud Abbas has
been the president of the PA since what
is it 2006 2006 almost 20 years without
elections. He is old. Many people say,
you know, he's, you know, moribband, you
know, he's not connecting with ordinary
Palestinians.
And, you know, when I was last in
Ramallah, which is last year, speaking
to people on the street, you know, they
were saying, well, you know, we don't
like this guy. He's corrupt. You know,
he's not representing our interest. We
would much rather, you know, have
someone from Hamas, frankly, running the
show. So, what do you say to those who
say for you to tell us about our, you
know, democratic failings on Palestine?
What about in the West Bank itself?
>> The rights uh you know I ran against Mr.
Abbas in 2005 on a platform of
anti-corruption and uh and other things
and unfortunately we didn't have
elections for 20 years. While we
struggle for our freedom and liberty
from the Israeli occupation and
oppression, we also struggle internally
to have democracy and to have free
democratic elections. That should happen
regularly every four years, not every 20
years. Uh so yes, Palestinians have the
right to choose their leaders freely and
democratically. But that doesn't mean
that we should accept that the United
States is not giving Mr. Abbas who
representative of Palestinians now the
right to come to the United Nations and
speak on behalf of his people.
>> Indeed. Mustafa Bagouti, General
Secretary of the Palestinian National
Initiative.